以色列-哈马斯战争：皮尔斯·摩根 vs 巴塞姆·优素福论巴勒斯坦待遇 | 完整采访（中英对照）

[Mia2014]

Israel-Hamas War: Piers Morgan vs Bassem Youssef On Palestine's Treatment | The Full Interview

Warning: This video contains swearing

P: Well, joining me now to discuss the conflict in Israel and Gaza is the TV host in Satur, Bassam Youssef. Bassem, it’s great to have you back on the program. I wish it was under different circumstances.
First of all, what is your reaction to what happened on October the 7th.

B: Oh, it was terrible, of course. I mean we, kind of, get our news, kind of, also secondhand because you know my wife’s family they live in Gaza. They have cousins and uncles there. And their house also was bombed. We haven’t been able to communicate with them for the past three days. Communication are lost. So we don’t know actually what is, how is like, how are they’re doing. But you know we used to that. I mean it’s, it’s, it’s very repetitive. We used to that. We used to them being bombed every time and moving from one place to the other. You know, it’s just like those Palestinians, they’re very dramatic: ah, Israel killing us, but they never die. I mean they always come back, you know. They, they’re very difficult to kill, very difficult people to kill. I know because I’m married to one. I tried many times, couldn’t kill her.

以色列-哈马斯战争：皮尔斯·摩根 vs 巴塞姆·优素福论巴勒斯坦待遇 | 完整采访

警告：本视频含有脏话

P：嗯，现在和我一起讨论以色列和加沙冲突的是《萨图尔》的电视主持人巴萨姆·优素福（Bassem Youssef）。 Bassem，很高兴您能重返该节目。 我希望这是在不同的情况下。首先，你对10月7日发生的事情有何反应？

B：哦，那当然很糟糕。 我的意思是，我们得到我们的新闻，也是二手的，因为你知道我妻子的家人，他们住在加沙。 他们在那里有表兄弟姐妹和叔叔。 他们的房子也被炸了。 过去三天我们一直无法与他们沟通。 通讯中断。 所以我们实际上不知道他们是什么、怎么样。 但你知道我们已经习惯了。 我的意思是，它是，它非常重复。 我们习惯了。 我们习惯了他们每次都被轰炸并从一个地方搬到另一个地方。 你知道，就像那些巴勒斯坦人一样，他们非常戏剧化：啊，以色列在杀我们，但他们永远不会死。 我的意思是他们总是会回来，你知道。 他们，他们很难杀，很难杀的人。 我知道，因为我已经结婚了。 我试了很多次，都杀不了她。

P: I mean there’s a dark humour there and I understand why because …

B: No, it’s not dark humour I really. I try to get to her every time but she uses our kids as human shields, I can never take her out.

P: Again, I understand the humour but I am, to be serous, Bassem, about this tonight. There is …

B: Okay, I will be serious, no, I will be serious. I was watching your interview with Ben Shapiro, and I will tell you one thing. I think that Ben Shapiro is one of the smartest people who ever walked this Earth. He’s very very smart. I follow him and I believe everything he said. And when he came out on your show, his solution was and I quote his solution was that the solution for this is for Israel to annex Gaza and to kill as many son of bitch as possible to make sure that this will never happen again and anyone, anyone who call for a ceasefire will be a terrorist sympathizer so God forbid, I don’t want to be labeled as a terrorist sympathizer so I agree with Ben Shapiro. I think we should kill as many son of bitch as possible.

P：我的意思是其中有一种黑色幽默，我理解为什么，因为……

B：不，我真的不是黑色幽默。 我每次都试图接近她，但她把我们的孩子当作人体盾牌，我永远无法把她赶出去。

P：再说一次，我理解这种幽默，但说实话，巴塞姆，今晚我对此很严肃。 有 …

B：好吧，我会认真的，不，我会认真的。 我正在观看您对本·夏皮罗的采访，我会告诉您一件事。 我认为本·夏皮罗是地球上最聪明的人之一。 他非常非常聪明。 我跟随他，我相信他所说的一切。 当他出现在你的节目中时，他的解决方案是，我引用他的解决方案，解决方案是以色列吞并加沙并杀死尽可能多的王八蛋，以确保这种情况永远不会再次发生，任何人，任何呼吁停火的人都会成为恐怖分子同情者，所以上帝保佑，我不想被贴上恐怖分子同情者的标签，所以我同意本·夏皮罗的观点。 我认为我们应该杀掉尽可能多的王八蛋。

P: Let me …,

B: So far 3500 people were killed, including 500 son of bitch in the bombing of the Baptist hospital as we speak right now. One third of those 3500 were children so my question to Ben Shapiro is: how many more son of bitches do we need to kill so Ben Shapiro is happy, because it changes from …

P: …

B: I’m sorry, that list, I’m really at a disadvantage here. I’m looking at a camera. I don’t see you. I can hear you on my mic …

P: I’m interrupting you … I think you might be … I think you’re conflating different interviews with Ben Shapiro. He didn’t use the phrase sons of bitches with me. Let me play to you what he actually said on my …

B: He did, he did, to back to your interview.

P: He didn’t that was another interview but let me play with he said to me here.

Ben Shapiro: Frankly I don’t believe in proportionate response to terrorism. I believe that the way that you stop terrorism is with wildly disproportionate response that doesn’t mean in terms of targeting civilians. It means in terms of killing as many terrorists as humanly possible and allowing them to dictate the terms of engagement by hiding behind civilians in areas that they are supposedly responsible for means that the only option for Israel is to surrender to Hamas’s hatred of its own citizens, its willingness to use its own children as human shields, no, no country worth it sort could ever do it.

B：到目前为止，已有 3500 人死亡，其中包括我们现在所说的浸信会医院爆炸案中的 500 人。 这 3500 人中有三分之一是儿童，所以我向本·夏皮罗提出的问题是：我们还需要杀死多少个王八蛋，这样本·夏皮罗才会高兴，因为它从……改变了。

P：……

B：对不起，那个名单，我在这里确实处于劣势。 我正在看相机。 我没有看到你。 我可以通过麦克风听到你的声音……

P：我打断你的话……我认为你可能是……我认为你正在混淆对本夏皮罗的不同采访。 他没有对我用“狗娘养的”这个词。 让我给你播放一下他在我的节目中实际说的话……

B：他说了，他说了，回到你的采访。

P：他没有，那是另一次采访，但让我放一下他说了什么。

本·夏皮罗：坦率地说，我不相信对恐怖主义采取适当的反应。 我认为制止恐怖主义的方法是采取极其不成比例的反应，这并不意味着针对平民。 这意味着尽可能多地杀死恐怖分子，并允许他们通过隐藏在他们认为负责的地区的平民背后来决定交战条件，这意味着以色列唯一的选择就是屈服于哈马斯对其公民的仇恨 ，它愿意使用自己的孩子作为人体盾牌，不，任何值得的国家都无法做到这一点。

P: Now that is significant, substantively different to what you said he said. He said right he’s talking specifically about terrorism there .

B: I agree, I agree with him. The thing is, the question is what is a proportionate response because it has been different from one tier to other. So if you look to this graph, for example, this is the death of Israeli and Palestinians and it’s changing from one year to year. It’s like fluctuating like crypto. So my question is today what is the going rate today for human lives. I mean 2014 was a great year for Ben Shapiro. 88 Israelis were died and there was 2329 Palestinians killed on the other side, that is 1 Israeli for 27 Palestinians. That is a very good exchange rate. What I’m saying is what is the exchange rate for today so you guys will be happy. That’s my question.

P: It’s not me, guys, I’m not on either side.

B: no, not you like, when I say you guys, I say like the people on the other side of that, I know that you don’t think like that appear. You one of the good guys but let me tell you some thing. I mean I’m the reason that I’m, I’m using this is that I mean I can’t remember what happened in 2014, and there was no music festival but there must be something, I mean they must do something, it is their fault. It has to be something. I mean, 2018, 300 Palestinian died. Ah, who’s counting. You know, so the thing is what my question is: Let’s find what is the exchange rate for human life today so we know expect the future death of Palestinians and will be happy to it.

P：这很重要，与你所说的他说的有本质上的不同。 他说得对，他正在专门谈论那里的恐怖主义。

B：我同意，我同意他的观点。 问题是，问题是什么是适当的回应，因为每一层的反应都是不同的。 例如，如果你看一下这张图表，这是以色列人和巴勒斯坦人的死亡，而且每年都在变化。 就像加密货币一样波动。 所以我今天的问题是今天人类生命的现状是多少。 我的意思是，2014 年对本·夏皮罗来说是伟大的一年。 88 名以色列人死亡，另一方则有 2329 名巴勒斯坦人被杀，即 1 名以色列人遇害 27 名巴勒斯坦人。 这是一个非常好的汇率。 我说的是今天的汇率是多少，所以你们会很高兴。 这是我的问题。

P：这不是我，伙计们，我不站在任何一方。

B：不，不是你喜欢的，当我说你们的时候，我说像那边的人，我知道你们看起来不像那样。 你是好人之一，但让我告诉你一些事情。 我的意思是我之所以这样，我使用这个是因为我不记得 2014 年发生了什么，没有音乐节，但一定有什么，我的意思是他们必须做点什么， 这是他们的错。 它必须是某种东西。 我的意思是，2018 年，300 名巴勒斯坦人死亡。 啊，谁在数呢。 你知道，所以问题就是我的问题：让我们找出今天人命的汇率是多少，这样我们就知道巴勒斯坦人未来会死亡，并对此感到高兴。

P: My response to that would be this. I thought carefully about this, because I think, I think it’s very tricky for people like me to immerse ourselves into a conflict where we’re not directly involved and I thought carefully about what I feel about this. I feel that the scale of what Hamas did on October the 7th supersedes anything else. I’ve seen in this conflict, really ever that, the savagery, the butchery, the slaughter of 1300, the shooting of babies, the kidnapping a grandmother and so on, so if we can agree on that which I think is inarguable. Then the question then becomes again about proportion. I don’t disagree that there’s been a lot of bad stuff on both sides going back historically for decades. But if we agree that this was on a different level altogether quite deliberately by Hamas designed, designed to provoke, designed to …

B: my question …

P: Let me ask you a question and the question you raised it earlier about proportion. I honestly don’t know what the proportionate response is. I honestly don’t. I’ve been watching the air strike.

B: What’s your question?

P: I would ask you if you were Israel, what would you …

B: I was Israel.

P: If you were Israel and that had happened to you. What would you think would be the appropriate way for the country to respond.

B: I would do exactly like Israel did. Kill as many people as possible since the world is letting me to do it. I mean I can do it because I can, you know. But the thing is what I agree with you and you know what I’m going to be even ahead of you because I see the question coming. Do you condemn Hamas for what they did. Yes. I condemn Hamas. I condemn Hamas. I condemn Hamas is the source of all evil there for and you know what, let’s for a minute, imagine a world without Hamas.

P：我对此的回应是这样的。 我仔细地思考了这一点，因为我认为，对于像我这样的人来说，让自己陷入我们没有直接参与的冲突中是非常棘手的，我仔细地思考了我对此的感受。 我觉得哈马斯在 10 月 7 日所做的事情的规模超过了其他任何事情。 我在这场冲突中亲眼目睹了野蛮行径、屠杀 1300 人、射杀婴儿、绑架祖母等等，所以如果我们能在这一点上达成一致，我认为这是无可争议的。 那么问题又变成了比例。 我不同意双方在历史上几十年来都曾发生过很多不好的事情。 但如果我们同意，这是在一个不同的层面上，完全是哈马斯故意设计的、旨在挑衅的、旨在……

B：我的问题……

P：让我问你一个问题，以及你之前提出的关于比例的问题。 老实说，我不知道相应的反应是什么。 老实说我不知道。 我一直在观看空袭。

B：你想问什么？

P：我想问你，如果你是以色列，你会怎样……

B：我是以色列人。

P：如果你是以色列，那也发生在你身上。 您认为该国的适当应对方式是什么？

B：我会像以色列那样做。 尽可能多地杀死人，因为世界允许我这么做。 我的意思是我能做到，因为我能，你知道。 但问题是我同意你的观点，你知道我会在你之前做什么，因为我看到了问题的出现。 你谴责哈马斯的所作所为吗？ 是的。 我谴责哈马斯。 我谴责哈马斯。 我谴责哈马斯是那里万恶之源，你知道吗，让我们想象一下没有哈马斯的世界。

P: Right.

B: What will this world look like? Let’s give this world a name and let’s name this world the West Bank. Hamas has absolutely no control in the West Bank and since the beginning of this, only through August, 37 Palestinian kids were killed. No music festival, no paragliding, no Hamas. Since the occupation of the West Bank, 7000 Palestinians were killed. No music festival, no paragliding, no Hamas. I can go on and on and on and on.

P: But you don’t need to because in a way you’re reaching to the choir. I follow this crisis.

B: No you’re not preaching so the thing is like.

P: In sense, I know what you’re saying have validity of course, of course.

B: Pierce, by the way, Pierce, Pierce I am at a disadvantage here. I can hear you. I cannot see you. I am in a … don’t interrupt me and interrupt my points.

P: Sure.

B: So because this has to be fair. If you want to only hear your opinion, I can just condemn Hamas and go home. I can do that. So if you want to do that or do you have a much more nuance conversation.

P: No, I absolutely want to have a nuance conversation. I wasn’t aware I was interrupting you.

B: Amazing. So let’s, I mean I would say, I would say I really applaud Israel for doing one thing that no military force in the world does because I heard, heard Ben Shapiro and I heard Ronda Santis and they said, they said Israel is the only military force in the world that warns civilians before bombing them. I mean how fucking excuse. It is so nice of them because with this logic if Russian troops started warning Ukrainians before bombing their houses, we’re cool with Putin. Right? I mean okay. Hay baby, you have warned them, go, invade. It’s fine. You have done your job. I mean the thing is and I understand and I also heard Ben Shapiro talking about human, see, so you remember my wife’s family they live in Gaza, so I asked them, I told them when Israel give you the nice warning, the cute warning, does Hamas force you to stay in your home, so you can be bombed and use as human shield. You know what Hassen, here my wife’s cousin, he’s a loser, You know, he told me, you know, when I asked him, does that happen, he told me, no, the lying son of bitch lied to me. I told him you don’t understand, Ben Shapiro and Ronda Santis keep saying that Israel warns you and Hamas ask you to keep to stay put so I told you he’s a loser, he never kept a job, he even like failed in all of the interviews to become like a human shield. I would believe Ben Shapir …

P：对。

B：这个世界会是什么样子？ 让我们给这个世界一个名字，让我们将这个世界命名为约旦河西岸。 哈马斯对约旦河西岸完全没有控制权，自此以来，仅到 8 月，就有 37 名巴勒斯坦儿童被杀害。 没有音乐节，没有滑翔伞，没有哈马斯。 自约旦河西岸被占领以来，已有7000名巴勒斯坦人被杀害。 没有音乐节，没有滑翔伞，没有哈马斯。 我可以继续说下去。

P：但你不需要这样做，因为在某种程度上你正在变成合唱团。 我关注这场危机。

B：不，你不是在说教，所以事情就是这样。

P：从某种意义上说，我当然知道你说的有道理。

B：皮尔斯，顺便说一句，皮尔斯，皮尔斯，我在这里处于劣势。 我可以听见你。 我看不到你。 我现在处于……不要打断我，也不要打断我的观点。

P：当然。

B：所以因为这必须是公平的。 如果你只想听听你的意见，我可以谴责哈马斯并回家。 我能做到。 因此，如果您想这样做，或者您是否需要进行更细致的对话。

P：不，我绝对想进行一次细致的对话。 我不知道我打扰了你。

B：太棒了。 所以，我想说，我真的很赞赏以色列做了一件世界上没有任何军事力量做过的事情，因为我听到，听到本·夏皮罗和隆达·桑蒂斯，他们说，他们说以色列是唯一的世界上在轰炸平民之前警告平民的军事力量。 我的意思是多么他妈的借口。 他们真是太好了，因为按照这种逻辑，如果俄罗斯军队在轰炸乌克兰人的房屋之前开始警告他们，我们认为普京不错了。 是么？ 我的意思是好吧。 嘿，宝贝，你已经警告过他们了，去入侵吧。 没关系。 你已经完成了你的工作。 我的意思是，我理解，我也听到本·夏皮罗谈论人类，所以你记得我妻子的家人他们住在加沙，所以我问他们，我告诉他们当以色列给你一个很好的警告，可爱的警告 ，哈马斯是否强迫你呆在家里，这样你就可以被轰炸并用作人体盾牌。 你知道，哈森，我妻子的表弟，他是个失败者，你知道，他告诉我，你知道，当我问他，会发生这种事吗，他告诉我，不，那个说谎的王八蛋对我撒了谎。 我告诉他你不明白，本·夏皮罗和隆达·桑蒂斯一直说以色列警告你，哈马斯要求你留在原地，所以我告诉你他是一个失败者，他从未保住过工作，他甚至在所有事情上都失败了，采访中变得像人体盾牌。 我相信本·夏皮尔……

P:…

B: No, no, no, let’s go with that. No, no, let me ask …

P: At some point I must be able to ask you questions.

B: If we agree that the 14000 casualties, I mean, who’s counting, are human shield, does that mean that every single one of those civilians was standing obscuring a military target behind them, because that’s a lot of weapons, I mean, Hamas is packing.

P: No, of course, it doesn’t. Look, you know…

B: So, so there is some collateral damage. Lots of collateral damage.

P: Yes.

B: It’s fine, yeah, you kill some to save some and then kill some more, yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah, yeah, I agree.

P: I would let me ask you this again. It comes back to proportionate response. When the world decided it had to get rid of ISIS because of the appalling butchery they were carrying out. It did so by also killing very sadly a lot of civilians along the way by doing air strikes against places which …

B: By killing civilians are inevitable, you said that in the beginning, it’s inevitable.

P: Once Israel has decided that they want to get rid of Hamas and Hamas is embedded with civilian population. I’m very concerned about what’s going to happened next. I’ve written a column tonight saying I remember the Iraq which I opposed right, I remember, all this, so my question to you is.

B: I know.

P：……

B：不，不，不，我们就这样吧。 不不不，我问一下……

P：在某些时候我必须能够问你问题。

B：如果我们同意 14000 名伤亡者，我的意思是，谁在数，那是人肉盾牌，这是否意味着这些平民中的每一个都站着以遮挡他们身后的军事目标，因为那是很多武器，我的意思是，哈马斯 正在打包。

P：不，当然不是。 瞧，你知道……

B：所以，所以存在一些附带损害。 很多附带损害。

P：是的。

B：没关系，是的，你杀一些人救一些人，然后再杀一些人，是的，是的，我同意。 是的，是的，我同意。

P：我想再问你一次。 这又回到了相称反应。 当世界决定必须消灭伊斯兰国时，因为他们进行了骇人听闻的屠杀。 它通过对一些地方进行空袭来实现这一目标，非常可悲地杀死了沿途的许多平民……

B：杀害平民是不可避免的，你一开始就说过，这是不可避免的。

P：一旦以色列决定消灭哈马斯，而哈马斯已融入平民之中。 我非常担心接下来会发生什么。 今晚我写了一篇专栏，说我记得我反对的伊拉克（战争），我记得，所有这一切，所以我问你的问题是。

B：我知道。

P: What would you think would be proper in response by Israel to what happened.

B: Well, these are years of disproportionate responses of Israel did it solve the solution. Did it solve the problem. Did it work before so it will. What will be the surprise this time. What will be the twist that will make this work this time. What will be different this time. Seriously I mean like this is only the last 15 years, I mean, because it’s too many papers I just got this but, what, how will, this will be different and the thing is I am so glad in the introduction that you mentioned the Iraq War. I applaud you Piers for saying that, because you were honest about it. You said that spreading lies. Like WMDS make people look at those people as less of humans and they would accept the death of a million Iraqi whether by sanctions or by Invasion. Right? You are a good man. This is amazing and you know what is similar is when you spread the lies of 40 decapitated babies although it was refuted so what happened happens when people hear that. You know, killing babies is horrible. But when you say decapitated 40 babies, you are planting a certain image…

P: Who said that?

B: … trigger in people’s mimd.

P: Who has said that?

B: You said 40 decapitated.

P: Who has said that?

B: You have you have repeat.

P: No no I haven’t.

B: What?

P: I’ve never said that.

B: You haven’t said on your show 40 decapitated babies.

P: Never.

P：您认为以色列对所发生的事件作什么样的反应是合适的？

B：嗯，这些年来以色列的反应不成比例，它是否解决了这个问题。 有没有解决问题呢。 以前有用以后也会用么？这次又会有什么惊喜呢。 这次会有什么扭曲让这项工作成功呢？ 这次会有什么不同。 说真的，我的意思是，这只是过去 15 年的事情，我的意思是，因为我刚刚收到的文件太多了，但这会有什么不同，问题是我很高兴你在介绍中提到了伊拉克战争。 我为皮尔斯的这句话鼓掌，因为你对此很诚实。 你说散布谎言。 就像大规模杀伤性武器让人们将这些人视为低人一等一样，他们会接受一百万伊拉克人的死亡，无论是通过制裁还是通过入侵。 正确么？ 你是一个好人。 这太神奇了，你知道类似的事情是当你散布 40 个被斩首婴儿的谎言时，尽管它被驳斥了，所以当人们听到这个消息时会发生什么。 你知道，杀死婴儿是可怕的。 但当你说斩首 40 个婴儿时，你是在植入某种形象……

P：谁说的？

B：……在人们的脑海中触发。

P：谁说的？

B：你说40个人被斩首。

P：谁说的？

B：你有你有重复。

P：不，不，我没有。

B：什么？

P：我从来没有这么说过。

B：你在节目中没有提到40个被斩首的婴儿。

P：从来没有。

B: Ben Shapir didn’t say?

P: No.

B: Ronda Sanz didn’t say it?

P: Nobody has said that.

B: Okay. Nobody said it?

P: No.

B: Oh, okay. Okay. Maybe I am wrong. Decapitated here is wrong.

P: I’ve never said that.

B: The thing what happened, no, you’re wrong, but the thing is when Iraq the thing is the same thing is happening in Iraq. Ben Shapiro once tweeted not even about Gaza, about the West Bank when Israel continued to build the illegal system. He said 2017 Israel likes to build things and Arabs not Palestine not Hamas Arabs like the bomb crap and live in open sewage. Yeah I thought that was very very the Israeli the Israeli defence the Israel defence minister he said those are human animals. And the thing is Ben Shapir should know better because you know long before the Holocaust before Jewish people were thrown in the gas chambers, the Nazi propaganda call them rats. Now as a human being I will never accept that another human being being thrown in a gas chamber but a rat kill 10, kill a thousand, 3500. They are son of bitch, they are human animals who live in open sewage and decapitate babies and because of that propaganda, Mr Morgan that guy in Illinois, the 71 years old guy he killed stabbing the six years old Palestinian kid in 26 times and he used to play with him they used to be friends but he went in marching into their apartment and killing him shouting all Muslims could die. It took you 80 years to change one word from Jewish to Muslim and then you transferred your guilt to us and took away our land.

P: Let me ask you a question.

B: That deal sucks, man.

B：本·夏皮尔没说吗？

P：没有。

B：隆达·桑斯没有说过吗？

P：没有人这么说过。

B：好的。 没人说吗？

P：没有。

B：哦，好吧。 好的。 也许我错了。 这里斩首是错误的。

P：我从来没有这么说过。

B：发生的事情，不，你错了，但问题是，当伊拉克发生时，同样的事情正在伊拉克发生。 当以色列继续建立非法系统时，本·夏皮罗（Ben Shapiro）曾经发过推文，甚至没有提到加沙，而是提到了约旦河西岸。 他说2017年以色列喜欢建造东西，阿拉伯人, 不是巴勒斯坦人, 不是哈马斯, 阿拉伯人喜欢炸弹垃圾，生活在露天污水中。 是的，我认为这非常非常以色列，以色列国防部长，以色列国防部长，他说那些是人类动物。问题是本·沙皮尔应该更清楚，因为你知道早在大屠杀之前，在犹太人被扔进毒气室之前，纳粹宣传称他们为老鼠。 现在，作为一个人，我永远不会接受另一个人被扔进毒气室，但作为老鼠，杀死了10个，杀死了1000个，杀死了3500个。他们是狗娘养的，他们是生活在露天污水中并斩首婴儿的人类动物， 由于这种宣传，摩根先生在伊利诺伊州杀死了，那个 71 岁的家伙，他用刀刺了那个 6 岁的巴勒斯坦孩子 26 次，他曾经和他一起玩，他们曾经是朋友，但他走进了他们的公寓，杀死他时高喊着所有穆斯林都该死。 你们花了80年的时间才把一个词从犹太教变成了穆斯林，然后你们把你们的罪孽转嫁到了我们身上，并夺走了我们的土地。

P：让我问你一个问题。

B：那笔交易很糟糕，伙计。

P: Let me ask you a question. How do we get from where we are now to peace?

B: Well, first of all, you need to change the perception. Nikki Haley the American presidential candidate said we are in Israel in this because it’s a fight between good and evil. Now if you already decided someone is good, he can do no evil and if you decided that someone is evil, it’s good to kill them. Killing them is good. You see, the thing is it is it is not like something new I mean I look at history and I see I’m sorry to say and I’m sorry to say this but westerners has always dealt like this with indigenous people you first treated them like Savages. You know Native American First Nation Aboriginal. They’re savages, kill all the savages. And then when they’re almost extinct you start feeling sorry for them you know like animals. So maybe maybe the solution is that we kill as many as Palestinians as possible so the few of them that remains do not bother you and maybe …

P: You keep talking about …

B: for another years become a tree hugger …

P: Let me just challenge you on this …

B: and he will campaign for for preserving.

P: You keep talking about westerners like me, okay, so let me return the favour. Okay. Hamas is dedicated to the complete eradication of Jewish people.

B: I am not the spokesman for Hamas. Why do you why do …

P: I am not saying you are.

B: I hate them. I hate Hamas. Are you happy?

P: You’re missing my point. You’re talking in a generalized way about people in the west who always talk about Arabs as savages. I don’t.

B: No no no. I’m …

B：嗯，首先，你需要改变观念。 美国总统候选人妮基·黑利 (Nikki Haley) 表示，我们在此时支持以色列，因为这是一场正义与邪恶之间的斗争。 现在，如果你已经认定某人是善的，他就不能做恶；如果你认定某人是恶的，那么杀掉他们是件好事。 杀了他们就好了。 你看，事情是这样的，这并不像什么新鲜事，我的意思是，我看看历史，我明白了，我很遗憾地说，我很遗憾地说，但西方人总是这样对待你，首先对待的土著人，他们就像野蛮人。 您了解美洲原住民，第一民族原住民。 他们是野蛮人，杀死所有野蛮人。 然后当他们几乎灭绝时，你开始为他们感到难过，你知道它们就像动物一样。 所以也许解决方案是我们杀死尽可能多的巴勒斯坦人，这样剩下的少数人就不会打扰你，也许……

P：你一直在谈论……

B：再过几年，成为一名环保人士……

P：让我向你挑战一下……

B：他会为保护而奋斗。

P：你一直在谈论像我这样的西方人，好吧，那我就还礼吧。 好的。 哈马斯致力于彻底消灭犹太人。

B：我不是哈马斯的发言人。 你为什么为什么要这么做……

P：我并不是说你是。

B：我讨厌他们。 我讨厌哈马斯。 你快乐吗？

P：你没明白我的意思。 你以一种笼统的方式谈论西方人，他们总是把阿拉伯人说成是野蛮人。 我不。

B：不不不。 我是 …

P: Talking the campaign. I let the media campaign in this country against Iraq War. Okay so I don’t see I don’t see people in the Middle East Savages, say the Goodes but …

B: What I say talking about you’re great.

P: No no it’s not about me. It’s about the way Hamas behaved on October the 7th was like savages, like a pack of savages, it was the worst atrocity against Jewish people since the Holocaust .

B: Of course.

P: There has to be a response and my question …

B: Be …

P: My question is what is the proportionate response.

B: I don’t know but there’s no Hamas in the West Bank and they’re still dying there, so what’s your excuse?

P: I don’t have any excuse.

B: Okay. What’s your explanation. Sorry sorry, my earpiece went down.

P: I … listen… I don’t make any pretence that this hasn’t been a massive problem.

B: Okay.

P: Between Palestine and Israel going back to the mid-40s. We all know this right.

P：谈到运动。 我让这个国家的媒体宣传反对伊拉克战争。 好吧，所以我没有看到，我没有看到中东野蛮人，但是……

B：我说的，关于你的事情很棒。

P：不不，这与我无关。 这是关于哈马斯在10月7日的表现就像野蛮人，就像一群野蛮人，这是自大屠杀以来针对犹太人最严重的暴行。

B：当然。

P：必须有一个回应，我的问题……

B：……

P：我的问题是，什么是相称的回应。

B：我不知道，但约旦河西岸没有哈马斯，而且他们仍然在那里死去，所以你的借口是什么？

P：我没有任何借口。

B：好的。 你的解释是什么。 抱歉抱歉，我的耳机掉了。

P：我……听着……我不会假装这不是一个大问题。

B：好的。

P：巴勒斯坦和以色列之间的关系可以追溯到 20 世纪 40 年代中期。 我们都知道这一点。

B: I’m … Pierce, Pierce, Pierce, listen, I’m not saying that you’re making excuse but if you are adopting a certain point of view, you have to at least defend it. I’m telling you there is no Hamas in the West Bank. What is the excuse, not your excuse, what is the accuse to kill those people?

P: Well, it’s, listen, this question of proportionality is one …

B: No no no, answer my question. I’ve been answering your question, you answer mine.

P: It’s actually not my job to answer your questions. It’s not.

B: Okay. Not your job. I agree with you.

P: I’m more interested in you who has family in Gaza, who’s an Egyptian in the Middle East, right? I’m more interested in what you have to say.

B: Okay, I’m telling you, I’m telling you, I think Hamas is the problem, okay? Now let’s say Hamas is removed. Let’s … yeah, I’m agreeing with everything about. You want me to go Hamas, I will condemn Hamas Home Hassen … Everybody guys, so wait I can’t hear you. The earpiece, okay.

B: Here is the thing. Let’s say for example Hamas ceased to exist today. Now right now in Palestine, in West Bank and Gaza, 20% of Palestinians go through Israeli prison system whether imprisonment, whether interrogation, whether torture and the rest of them they live a life of daily loss of land, of homes, of life and they are suffocated by the … , so let me ask you something, if you are a Palestinian living into these conditions for decades. Would you sympathize with your oppressor or sympathize with the people who claim they resist them even if they are terrorist.

P: I have made no secret that I think the conditions Palestinians have had to exist under are completely unacceptable. I’ve said that for years. So the question then becomes how do you forge peace between two waring parts of that region who for decades have approached peace in my view with mutual sledgehammers with no actual desire to have peace and I think it comes down in the end to great leadership. And I don’t think there’s great, I don’t think, well, hang on, let me make my point. I don’t think there’s great leadership on either side. Where is the Nelson Mandela figure here to come through all this.

B: Nelson Mandela?

B：我是……皮尔斯，皮尔斯，皮尔斯，听着，我不是说你在找借口，但如果你采用某种观点，你至少必须捍卫它。 我告诉你，西岸没有哈马斯。 有什么借口，不是你的借口，有什么罪名去杀那些人？

P：嗯，听着，相称问题是一个……

B：不不不，回答我的问题。 我一直在回答你的问题，你也回答我的问题。

P：其实回答你的问题不是我的工作。 它不是。

B：好的。 不是你的工作。 我同意你的看法。

P：我对你更感兴趣，你在加沙有家人，是中东的埃及人，对吗？ 我对你说的更感兴趣。

B：好吧，我告诉你，我告诉你，我认为哈马斯才是问题所在，好吗？ 现在假设哈马斯被清除了。 让我们……是的，我同意一切。 你们想让我去哈马斯，我会谴责哈马斯之家哈森……各位，等等，我听不到你们的声音。 耳机还可以吧

B：事情是这样的。 举例来说，哈马斯今天已不复存在。 现在在巴勒斯坦、约旦河西岸和加沙，20%的巴勒斯坦人在以色列监狱系统中接受监禁、审讯、酷刑，其余的人过着每天失去土地、家园、生命的生活。 他们被……窒息了，所以让我问你一件事，如果你是一个在这些条件下生活了几十年的巴勒斯坦人。 你会同情你的压迫者还是同情那些声称自己抵抗他们的人，即使他们是恐怖分子。

P：我毫不掩饰地表示，我认为巴勒斯坦人的生存条件是完全不可接受的。 我已经这么说了很多年了。 因此，问题就变成了如何在该地区两个交战的地区之间建立和平，在我看来，几十年来，这两个地区一直在互相用大锤达成和平，但实际上并没有和平的愿望，我认为这最终取决于伟大的领导力。 我不认为这有什么了不起的，我不认为，好吧，等等，让我阐明我的观点。 我认为双方都没有出色的领导能力。 经历这一切的纳尔逊·曼德拉人物在哪里？

B：纳尔逊·曼德拉

P: Where is that figure …

B: Nelson Mandela actually have criticized Israel for being a horrible State. All of the South African activist have actually …

P: My point is how he responded to a country that was so divided. Is a template for how you get peace, isn’t it?

B: I haven’t met Nelson Mandela so I wouldn’t know. But like, there is a point, there’s a very important point here you know. I want to understand what is the logic of Israel carpet bombing Gaza, I mean if there’s a logic, if there’s a good, if this will make Israeli safe, I want to hear the logic. So if they continue bombing, what are they hoping to achieve.

P: We know what their stated aim is to eradicate and wipe out Hamas. They believe Hamas are living predominantly in Northern Gaza and they also are aware they’re living amongst civilians. So it’s an incredibly difficult thing as I said in my monologue. You know it is very difficult to see how they do this without massive collateral damage.

B: So if I can understand this correctly Israel doing this is to pressure the Palestinian community in Gaza to turn against Hamas, is that right?

P: I’m sure that’s part of it, yes.

P：那个人物在哪里……

B：纳尔逊·曼德拉实际上批评以色列是一个可怕的国家。 所有南非活动家实际上都……

P：我的观点是他如何回应一个如此分裂的国家。 这是一个让你获得和平的模板，不是吗？

B：我没有见过纳尔逊·曼德拉，所以我不知道。 但是，有一点，你知道，这里有一个非常重要的点。 我想了解以色列地毯式轰炸加沙的逻辑是什么，我的意思是，如果有逻辑，如果有好的，如果这会让以色列安全，我想听听这个逻辑。 那么如果他们继续轰炸，他们希望达到什么目的呢？

P：我们知道他们宣称的目标是根除和消灭哈马斯。 他们认为哈马斯主要居住在加沙北部，他们也知道他们生活在平民中间。 所以正如我在独白中所说，这是一件非常困难的事情。 你知道，很难想象他们是如何做到这一点而不造成巨大的附带损害的。

B：如果我能正确理解的话，以色列这样做是为了向加沙的巴勒斯坦社区施压，让他们反对哈马斯，对吗？

P：我确信这是其中的一部分，是的。

B: So this is exactly what terrorist organization do, because terrorist organizations will have no chance beating a whole nation in battle, so they terrorize and they kill the civilians in order to spread fear and terror, so they can turn against their government to change their policy or resign, you have just compared Israel with ISIS.

P: No, I haven’t. I don’t see any comparison between …

B: It’s going to be the headlines tomorrow …

P: Only amongst people who weren’t listening. Comparison which is more opposite is ISIS and Hamas. They are both nistic Terror groups …

B: Absolutely.

P: … intent on killing as many Jewish people and others as they can possibly kill and you can’t get people like that.

B：所以这正是恐怖组织所做的，因为恐怖组织没有机会在战斗中击败整个国家，所以他们进行恐怖活动并杀害平民以传播恐惧，这样他们就可以反对政府来改变他们的政策或辞职，你刚刚将以色列与伊斯兰国进行了比较。

P：不，我没有。 我看不出有任何可比性……

B：这将成为明天的头条新闻……

P：只针对那些不听的人。 比较相反的是ISIS和哈马斯。 他们都是本质恐怖组织……

B：当然。

P：… 意图尽可能多地杀害犹太人和其他人，但你不可能让人们喜欢这样。

B: Absolutely. You know what? I’m going to do something that nobody done on your television. You know what I’m going to do on your episode. I’m going to pretend that I’m an Israeli citizen. I’m going to put myself in the place of an Israeli settler in the Kibbutz. And I want to speak to my Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Mr. Benjamin Netanyahu, I have voted for you because you have promised us peace and prosperity and security. On the 7th of October, those son of bitches Hamas they went into defence that is regularly heavy heavily guarded. Usually it’s like if there’s like a dog that comes close to it, it will be shot. Those people went in and they went for 6 hours before IDF forces was deployed killing our friends, our families, kidnapping our grandmothers and babies and went in. I want to ask you, Mr. Prime Minister, after you have fractured the Israeli community and you have fucked our courts, our Supreme Courts what are you doing with the money being given to you to the United States.

Also you are carpet bombing Gaza with absolutely no regard to our hostages, our people. I heard a rumour in the Kibbutz that you’re doing that as you let that happen to as an excuse to carpet bomb Gaza, so you push them into Sinai, and I didn’t believe that, I like, not my prime minister, he can never do that, and then I watched an interview for Danny Alon. He was your Chief advisor, he was also the Israeli ambassador to the United States, and you know what he said, Mr. Prime Minister, he said that the solution for those Palestinians is to go into a vast land of Sinai, and live into 10 cities temporarily, huh, temporary (wink wink) until we build Gaza again, and then we invite you back. We’ve seen this movie before. So yeah and I and when I saw this, I couldn’t explain to my fellows in the Kibbutz. How come our Israeli government is trading human lives for another piece of land? So as an Israeli citizen, I need to hold my Israeli government accountable, and as an American citizen, I want to know all of these money that we are giving to Israel. We giving them 4 billion dollars every year. Joe Biden said it’s the best investment they ever America ever done. Well if I am in the place of Joe Biden, I would go down and whisper in the ears of Netanyahu and tell them I hate bad investments. They haunt me, you know, like little finger in Game of Thrones, but the thing is this is the problem. Israel always victimizes itself and I have never seen a victim putting their oppressor under siege and bomb them 24/7. Israel wants you to believe that they are the victim is dealing with Israel is so difficult. It’s like being in a relationship with a narcissistic psychopath. He fucks you up and then he makes you think it’s your fault. You look at Israel as superman but they’re really homelander. They are shooting and they are annoyed with the splashes bass.

B: 我要在你的剧集中做。 我要假装我是以色列公民。 我将把自己置于基布兹的以色列定居者的位置。 我想和我的总理本杰明·内塔尼亚胡通话。 本杰明·内塔尼亚胡先生，我投票给你，因为你向我们承诺了和平、繁荣和安全。 10 月 7 日，那些狗娘养的哈马斯进入了通常戒备森严的防御阵地。 通常情况下，如果有一只狗靠近它，它就会被枪杀。 这些人进去了，他们进去了 6 个小时，在以色列国防军部队被部署之前，杀害了我们的朋友、我们的家人，绑架了我们的祖母和婴儿，然后进去了。总理先生，在你分裂了以色列社区并且你们操了我们的法院，我们的最高法院，你们拿着美国的钱在做什么。

你们还对加沙进行地毯式轰炸，完全不顾我们的人质和我们的人民。 我在基布兹听到谣言说你们这样做是因为你们以这种情况为借口对加沙进行地毯式轰炸，所以你们把他们推到了西奈半岛，我不相信这一点，我不相信，我的总理也不相信， 他永远做不到，然后我看了丹尼·阿隆的采访。 他是你的首席顾问，他也是以色列驻美国大使，你知道他说什么，总理先生，他说那些巴勒斯坦人的解决方案是进入西奈半岛广阔的土地，并暂时生活在10个城市，呵呵，暂时的（眨眼），直到我们再次建设加沙，然后我们邀请你回来。 我们以前看过这部电影。 所以，是的，当我看到这一点时，我无法向基布兹的同胞解释。 为什么我们的以色列政府要用人命换取另一块土地？ 因此，作为一名以色列公民，我需要让以色列政府承担责任，作为一名美国公民，我想知道我们向以色列提供的所有这些钱。 我们每年给他们 40 亿美元。 乔·拜登表示，这是他们在美国做过的最好的投资。 好吧，如果我处在乔·拜登的位置，我会下去在内塔尼亚胡耳边低语，告诉他们我讨厌糟糕的投资。 你知道，它们困扰着我，就像《权力的游戏》中的小手指一样，但问题是这就是问题所在。 以色列总是让自己受害，我从未见过受害者围攻他们的压迫者并全天候轰炸他们。 以色列希望你相信他们是受害者，与以色列打交道是如此困难。 这就像与一个自恋的精神病患者建立关系。 他把你搞砸了，然后他让你认为这是你的错。 你把以色列视为超人，但他们实际上是祖国人。 他们正在射击，他们对溅起的低音感到恼火。

P: I want to say two things. One if you could just slightly manage your language, we are uncensored but you keep swearing.

B: Sorry.

P: We have to apologize to viewers, you may be offended by that.

B: I apologize.

P: I understand passion run high so let’s not get too bogged down about the odds we…

B: I apologize to the viewers for my language.

P: My second is this …

B: after site of dead civilian

P: After the break, we have the managing director of The Daily Wire which is Ben Shapiro’s company, we were going to interview him on his own, but he’s happy to come on and talk with you directly if you are prepared to stay.

B: Of course, I can stay but again but I am this … I am in a disadvantage and I would like to have my space to respond.

P: Okay. We’ll come back after the break.

B: Because because here’s the thing.

P: We got to go to a break. When we come back from the break, you and Jeremy.

B: I have …

P: We’re taking a short break. I’ll be back.

P: Welcome back for more on the situation in Israel. I’m joined now by the CEO and co-founder of the Daily Wire. Ben Shapiro’s partner Jeremy Boring. Jeremy, thank you very much indeed for joining me. I’m sorry we demoted you earlier to MD. You are the CEO and Co-founder. You know Ben Shapiro better than anyone really. I did a big interview with Ben obviously the other night which went around the world and has sparked a big reaction including from our guest Bassem Youssef who’s still with us. First of all you’ve been listening to Bassem and what he’s been saying what’s your response.

P：我想说两件事。 一是如果你能稍微控制一下你的语言，我们是未经审查的，但你却一直说脏话。

B：抱歉。

P：我们必须向观众道歉，你们可能会因此而生气。

B：我道歉。

P：我理解人们的热情很高，所以我们不要太纠结于我们……的可能性。

B：我为我的语言向观众道歉。

P：我的第二个是这个……

B：平民死亡地点之后

P：休息后，我们请来了《每日电讯报》的董事总经理，这是本·夏皮罗的公司，我们本来打算单独采访他，但如果你准备留下来，他很乐意直接与你交谈。

B：当然，我可以留下来，但我就是这样……我处于劣势，我希望有自己的空间来回应。

P：好的。 休息后我们会回来。

B：因为因为事情就是这样。

P：我们得去休息一下了。 当我们休息回来时，你和杰里米。

B：我有……

P：我们暂时休息一下。 我会回来的。

P：欢迎回来了解更多有关以色列局势的信息。 现在《每日电讯报》的首席执行官兼联合创始人也加入了我的行列。 本·夏皮罗的搭档杰里米·博林。 杰里米，非常感谢你加入我。 很抱歉我们之前将您降级为MD。 您是首席执行官兼联合创始人。 你比任何人都更了解本·夏皮罗。 显然，前几天晚上我对本进行了一次大型采访，采访遍及世界各地，引起了很大的反响，包括我们的嘉宾巴塞姆·优素福（Bassem Youssef），他仍然和我们在一起。 首先，你一直在听巴塞姆的讲话，他说了什么，你的回应是什么。

J: Well, first of all, I make it a point, not to speak for Ben Shapiro, he’s got a 20 IQ points on me and speaks for a living professionally, so he’s much better prepared to defend himself, but as his business partner, as his best friend, I do feel like I have to respond to the things that Bossem was just saying.

First of all, the question of how many sons of bitches have to be killed in order to end this conflict, I suppose that the answer is as many of them as it takes. That doesn’t mean that I or Ben or any decent person in their right mind is happy with the killing of civilians. Uh I posted at the very beginning of this conflict that a woman and a child blown apart in Gaza is just as tragic as a Jewish baby killed in one of the settlements, that doesn’t mean that Israel’s actions and the actions of Hamas are morally equivalent you know. The tragedy is the tragedy but the moral equivalency is nonsense. If you entered Israel with the express purpose of targeting and murdering civilians with your own hands and cold blood that is not comparable to Israel bombing targets in the Gaza Strip and killing civilians as a terrible tragic consequence. War, war is terrible, war is an awful thing that’s why decent people don’t lightly engage in war and why Hamas should not have incited this war. You know we can talk about the history of the Israeli conflict. I’m not a professional political commentator, I’m a CEO, I’m a screenwriter uh and I’m certainly not Ben Shapiro, I’m not here to discuss the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but we all saw what happened on October 7th and the idea that Israel was not going to react severely to that or that Israel should not react severely to, that is ludicrous and …

P: Let me ask you a question.

J: Bapiro should be a moderating voice, that Bapiro should be, what, saying: no, Israel should not respond in this situation. That’s nonsense.

J：嗯，首先，我强调一点，不是代表本·夏皮罗说话，他的智商比我高 20 分，并且以专业的方式讲话来谋生，所以他更愿意为自己辩护，但作为他的商业伙伴，作为他最好的朋友，我确实觉得我必须对巴塞姆刚才说的话做出回应。

首先，要杀掉多少王八蛋才能结束这场冲突，我想答案是需要杀多少个杀多少个。 这并不意味着我或本或任何头脑正常的正派人对杀害平民感到高兴。 呃，我在这场冲突一开始就发帖说，加沙的一名妇女和一名儿童被炸成碎片，就像在一个定居点被杀的犹太婴儿一样悲惨，但这并不意味着以色列的行为和哈马斯的行为在道德上是相同的。你知道的，悲剧是悲剧，但道德上的对等是无稽之谈。 如果你进入以色列的明确目的是用自己的双手和冷血瞄准和谋杀平民，那么这与以色列轰炸加沙地带的目标并杀害平民所造成的可怕悲惨后果是无法比拟的。 战争，战争是可怕的，战争是一件可怕的事情，这就是为什么正派的人不会轻易参与战争，也是哈马斯不应该煽动这场战争的原因。 你知道我们可以谈论以色列冲突的历史。 我不是专业的政治评论员，我是首席执行官，我是编剧呃，我当然不是本·夏皮罗，我不是来这里讨论以色列-巴勒斯坦冲突的历史，但我们都看到了10月7日发生了什么事情，认为以色列不会对此做出严重反应或者以色列不应该对此做出严重反应的想法是荒谬的……

P：让我问你一个问题。

J：巴皮罗应该是一个温和的声音，巴皮罗应该是，说：不，以色列不应该在这种情况下做出反应。 那是无稽之谈。

P: Let me ask you though, Jeremy. What I mean the question which I think is the big question. What is a proportionate response to that outrage on October the 7th which is the worst attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust. What is proportionate, if it’s true, as reports are suggesting tonight that there may have been a hospital hit by an Israeli strike and up to 500 people or more have died, that would seem to me if that is verified and it’s not verified yet, you know, we don’t know exactly what has happened other than there’s been a hit on this hospital, but if that is verified to have been an Israeli strike that will strike many people as disproportionate.

J: Certainly, first of all, I don’t know what a proportionate response is or why we would want it. I suppose a proportionate response would be for 3000 Israelis to go through the fence gun down innocent Palestinian women and children, burn their bodies, burn them alive, take hostages, rape their women, no one wants a proportionate response, no moral person could possibly call for a proportionate response. The purpose of war is to defeat your enemy. The west has in my lifetime forgotten the purpose of war because the true cost of war is so terrible. The last time the West engaged in war and won it was World War II, and they did it through incredible brutality. They did it by bringing their enemies to heal that is not a thing to rah rah about, that’s not a thing to look forward to, as I said all decent people should avoid war but I think the sort of lie of the post World War II, the post-war consensus lie is that somehow war uh in which you kill a bunch of people and don’t secure victory, is morally superior to war when you do secure victory. I would say that the only way to morally justify a war is to win it otherwise your AR, the very argument that brought you into the war, this enemy must be defeated, ends up being proven a lie, I mean Afghanistan, I think America had every right to go into Afghanistan, uh the Taliban was harbouring Osama Bin Laden and al-Qaeda al-Qaeda flew planes into buildings in the United States killed thousands of our citizens, uh brought the nation into untold Agony pain and horror. America had every right morally to go in and destroy the Taliban and destroy al-Qaeda …

P：让我问你吧，杰里米。 我的意思是我认为这是一个大问题。 对于 10 月 7 日发生的那次暴行，这是自大屠杀以来对犹太人最严重的袭击，对此有何反应？ 如果这是真的，那么比例是多少，正如今晚有报道称，以色列的袭击可能袭击了一家医院，导致多达 500 人或更多人死亡，在我看来，如果这一消息得到证实，但尚未得到证实， 你知道，我们不知道到底发生了什么，只知道这家医院遭到了袭击，但如果证实这是以色列的袭击，那将让许多人感到不成比例。

J：当然，首先，我不知道什么是适当的回应，也不知道我们为什么想要它。 我认为适当的反应是让3000名以色列人冲过栅栏枪杀无辜的巴勒斯坦妇女和儿童，烧死他们的尸体，活活烧死他们，劫持人质，强奸他们的妇女，没有人想要适当的反应，没有道德的人可能会这样做, 呼吁做出相应的回应。 战争的目的是打败敌人。 在我有生之年，西方已经忘记了战争的目的，因为战争的真正代价是如此可怕。 西方上一次参与战争并赢得胜利是在第二次世界大战，他们通过令人难以置信的残酷手段做到了这一点。 他们通过让敌人痊愈来做到这一点，这不是一件值得期待的事情，正如我所说，所有正派的人都应该避免战争，但我认为这是二战后的谎言, 战后的共识谎言是，在某种程度上，你杀了一群人而没有获得胜利的战争，在道义上优于你获得胜利的战争。 我想说，在道义上证明战争合理的唯一方法是赢得战争，否则你的AR，将你带入战争的论点，这个敌人必须被击败，最终被证明是一个谎言，我指的是阿富汗，我认为美国完全有权进入阿富汗，呃，塔利班窝藏了乌萨马·本·拉登和基地组织，基地组织驾驶飞机撞入美国的建筑物，杀死了数千名我们的公民，呃，给这个国家带来了难以言喻的痛苦和恐怖。 美国在道义上完全有权利介入并摧毁塔利班和基地组织……

P: But I would argue …

J: But the Taliban now but the Taliban now rules in Afghan, the war was not won.

P: But that’s my point actually I’ve done a column about this tonight for the Sun here in the UK which is I was editor of a newspaper when the Iraq War happened, I uh opposed it very aggressively as the editor of paper and sadly we were born out by events, it was a complete disaster the Iraq War in my view. It was illegally contested I think and the consequences were appalling in terms of loss of life, a million people in terms of ISIS being allowed to breed and create their merry hell around the world in terms of complete dismantlement of Iraq itself as a functioning country, uh and I think Afghanistan again 20 years of you know attacking an enemy which is now running the country again seemed to me again to be kind of pointless and I do wonder whether Israel in its Blind Fury which I completely understand has thought through the consequences of actually launching a full air ground and see offensive into Gaza as to actually what happens at the end of that.

J: Well I suppose Israel wasn’t really given the opportunity to fully contemplate what the consequences of that action might be because Israel didn’t instigate this war. This war was instigated by a horrible terrorist attack on Israel and a state is put in a position where it has to respond now. One might argue that the very fact that Israel has yet to actually launch their ground invasion means that they are actually making a calculation about what cost will be, what victory looks like. Any rational person any decent person can engage in a conversation about what is the appropriate response for Israel, of course they can, but this sort of moral equivalency thing. I don’t think is a sign of decency to engage in a conversation about moral equivalency.

P：但我认为……

J：但是塔利班现在统治阿富汗，战争没有赢。

P：但这就是我的观点，实际上我今晚在英国为《太阳报》写了一篇关于这个问题的专栏，伊拉克战争发生时我是一家报纸的编辑，作为报纸的编辑，我，呃，非常强烈地反对它，可悲的是我们因事件而精疲力尽，在我看来，伊拉克战争是一场彻底的灾难。 我认为这是非法的争议，其后果是令人震惊的生命损失，一百万人的伊斯兰国被允许在世界各地繁殖和创造他们的快乐地狱，伊拉克本身作为一个正常运作的国家被彻底瓦解， 呃，我认为阿富汗又过去了 20 年，你知道，攻击现在再次统治这个国家的敌人在我看来再次毫无意义，我确实想知道，我完全理解盲目愤怒的以色列是否考虑过这样做的后果，实际上发动了全面的空中地面攻击，并看到对加沙的进攻，最终会发生什么。

J：嗯，我想以色列并没有真正有机会充分考虑这一行动可能产生的后果，因为以色列没有挑起这场战争。 这场战争是由对以色列的可怕恐怖袭击引发的，一个国家现在必须做出反应。 有人可能会说，以色列尚未真正发动地面入侵这一事实意味着他们实际上正在计算代价是什么，胜利是什么样子。 任何理性的人，任何正派的人都可以参与对话，讨论以色列的适当反应是什么，当然可以，但这种道德对等的事情，我不认为进行有关道德对等的对话是体面的表现。

P: Let me bring Bassem back in. You’ve been listening to this Bassem, what’s your response to what Jeremy’s been say.

B: I’m sorry, I didn’t catch the gentlemen’s name.

P: It’s Jeremy Boring. He’s the chief executive of the Daily Wire co-founder with Ben Shapiro of the Daily Wire.

B: Hi, Jeremy, please say hello to Ben Shapiro and please tell him that I do think he is the smartest person to ever walk the earth, thank you so much. So the response to Jeremy, I agree with everything you said. I mean what is disproportionate, I mean that you he just used the examples from Second World War and America showing that civilian casualty is, I mean, I heard his voice. He was very sad and he, as he was telling us it is so inevitable to kill so many civilians because it’s something that we cannot avoid. I hear the sadness in his voice and I know that it’s a very difficult decision to kill all of these civilians because that’s for a higher cause. And I understand. But my question I have two questions. The question is how can you justify the killing in the West Bank where Hamas does not exist and if the disproportionate response during the all of these years have actually worked. What will be new this time that did not happen before. I just want to that. That’s my question.

P: Okay.

B: That was my question. I’m so so now, if I ask the question, can I say something on my side.

P: A little, with respect personally. Bassem, with respect, I gave you half the show to have your side. Jeremy’s had a lot less time. I’m going to have to …

B: Do you want me to leave?

P: I’m going to have to let you go because been on there with you for 40 minutes.

B: Okay bye bye.

P: Listen, I’d like to talk to you again and thank you for joining the program. I appreciate it.

B: Bye bye. By the way, my wife’s family is all right and they send us a house. It’s bombed, it’s beautiful, it’s a good like Halloween theme so …

P: Well I’m very sorry for what your family are going through in Gaza and I mean very …

B: By the way I don’t know I don’t know them by the way, I haven’t actually met them. They didn’t even come to my wedding, they couldn’t because they are stuck in Gaza and she never saw them because you know Gaza is not a destination. We hear their voices and it’s they die. It’s fine, it’s fine.

P: Bassem, I wish your family all the very best, thank you for joining me. I appreciate.

B: I don’t. Thank you.

P：让我把巴塞姆带回来。你一直在听这个巴塞姆的讲话，你对杰里米所说的话有何回应。

B： 抱歉，我没听清先生们的名字。

P：他是杰里米·博宁。 他是《每日电讯报》的首席执行官，与本·夏皮罗共同创办了《每日电讯报》。

B：嗨，杰里米，请向本·夏皮罗问好，并请告诉他，我确实认为他是地球上最聪明的人，非常感谢。 所以对于杰里米的回应，我同意你所说的一切。 我的意思是什么是不成比例的，我的意思是你他只是用了第二次世界大战和美国的例子来表明平民伤亡，我的意思是，我听到了他的声音。 他非常悲伤，正如他告诉我们的那样，杀害这么多平民是不可避免的，因为这是我们无法避免的事情。 我听到他声音中的悲伤，我知道杀死所有这些平民是一个非常困难的决定，因为这是为了更高的事业。 我明白了。 但我的问题有两个问题。 问题是，你如何证明在哈马斯不存在的西岸进行的杀戮是合理的，以及这些年来不成比例的反应是否真正发挥了作用。 这次将带来以前没有发生过的新情况。 我只想那样。 这是我的问题。

P：好的。

B：这是我的问题。 我现在就这样了，如果我问这个问题，我能说点我自己的话吗？

P：有一点，出于个人的尊重。 巴塞姆，恕我直言，我给了你一半的节目时间来支持你。 杰里米的时间少了很多。 我将不得不……

B：你想让我离开吗？

P：我不得不让你走，因为我已经和你在一起 40 分钟了。

B：好的，再见。

P：听着，我想再次与您交谈，并感谢您加入该计划。 我很感激。

B：再见。 顺便说一句，我妻子的家人都很好，他们给我们发了房子（的照片）。 它被轰炸了，它很漂亮，它很像万圣节主题，所以......

P：嗯，我对你的家人在加沙所经历的一切感到非常抱歉，我的意思是非常......

B：顺便说一句，我不知道，顺便说一下，我不认识他们，我还没有真正见过他们。 他们甚至没有来参加我的婚礼，他们不能来，因为他们被困在加沙，而她从未见过他们，因为你知道加沙不是目的地。 我们听到他们的声音，他们就死了。 没关系，没关系。

P：巴塞姆，我祝愿你的家人一切顺利，谢谢你和我一起。 我很欣赏。

B：我不知道。 谢谢。